ENCORE: Unlocking Methylation with Zelda Graham

In this encore episode, we revisit our conversation on methylation with Naturopath  Zelda Graham, who specialises in epigenetics and managing MTHFR polymorphisms.

Zelda shares how she set out to defy her family's history of heart disease, autoimmune disorders, and depression by unlocking the power of methylation and tackling the underlying causes of her methylation issues and is now an expert in the field.

In this episode we cover: 

• An overview of methylation and how it affects the human body
• How to assess methylation polymorphisms
• The SIBO and Methylation connection
• How to manage B Vitamins and Co-Factors in MTHFR patients
• The role of digestion in epigenetics

About Zelda:

As an accredited Nutritionist, Naturopath & Methylation Practitioner who constantly stays up to date with health advancements and diagnoses, Zelda believes the body has the ability and power to heal itself when given the right tools.  By constantly keeping up-to-date with the most recent evidence-based science on epigenetics, naturopathic health and nutrition I can help you get your body back to health and vitality. 

Zelda's key areas of focus are MTHFR gene disorders, medical procedure reactions, diabetes, heart disease, hormone imbalance, IBS, FODMAP, GAPS diet, Coeliac disease, detoxification, food intolerances, insomnia, menopause, low energy levels, anxiety and fatigue syndromes, to name a few

Connect with Zelda:
Website: byronhealthandnutrition

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DISCLAIMER: The Information provided in the Wellness by Designs podcast is for educational purposes only; the information presented is not intended to be used as medical advice; please seek the advice of a qualified healthcare professional if what you have heard here today raises questions or concerns relating to your health

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:21

This is Well the Spider's Ones, and I'm your host, andrew Whitfield Cook. Joining us today is Zelda Graham, who's a naturopath and nutritionist and who specialises in epigenetics and the management of MTHFR polymorphisms. Welcome to Well the Spider's Ones, zelda. How are you?

Speaker 2: 0:40

I'm great, andrew. Thank you very much, and how are you?

Speaker 1: 0:44

I'm great. Thank you. Pleasure to have you on Now. You know we've spoken to various experts with regards to MTHFR, but often we get lost in the complexities without really taking it back to basics. So can you take us through an overview of methylation and how it affects the human body?

Speaker 2: 1:09

Yes, andrew, mthfr has been downplayed quite a lot, but in recent years a lot more research has been done on the importance of it for the body. So methylation does everything from repairs ourselves, our cell membranes, our DNA. It helps metabolise our energy. It helps us give the ability to absorb the vital nutrients from food. It can turn genes off or on, so that was one of the most important recent discoveries. Where other genes apply can be switched on because the MTHFR gene has been activated and it's not behaving and it can be a little bit cheeky. It also can control our homocysteine levels. It can control anxiety. It can turn stress off or on. It is a big link to depression and insomnia. It's not an actual multitude of effects on the body when we're methylating correctly.

Speaker 1: 2:23

So when we're talking about methylation, the sort of assumption is that we think about something being activated, but in a lot of cases it's actually to turn genes off and to keep them somnolent, keep them quiet. And it's the lack of methylation, the poor methylation, that enables the gene to be switched on ostensibly by other factors. So what do we have to be considerate of when we're talking about methylation, polymorphisms and, for instance, bystander reactions? I guess this is like a ball of wool teasing it apart. Where do you start?

Speaker 2: 3:08

Yeah, I mean, if we are methylating correctly, 80% of our other genes should be silent. Therefore they should be not activated. We shouldn't have any chronic illness. But when we're not methylating correctly, then the other genes can get turned on. And when we're not methylating correctly we get autoimmune disorders, lack of energy, chronic fatigue for women, a lot of menstrual problems, depression, anxiety. All of these things are all linked up.

Speaker 2: 3:46

Like methylation has the ability to control our cardiovascular system. It can control our immune response, it can control our reproductive system, our mood. That's why, if it's working and functioning, the 80% of the genes are not active. Therefore, we're not going to end up with things like heart disease. So we've heard of many people saying heart disease is in my family, I've got high cholesterol, and they just accept that as their fate because that's their family history.

Speaker 2: 4:25

When you test someone like that, they will have an MTFHR polymorphism, either homozygous or heterozygous, because actually 30% of the population have a polymorphism in heterozygous and 10% have the homozygous. When you're homozygous, that means you've got two copies from parents. When you're heterozygous, you've got one copy and there you have the inability to produce energy. You can't detoxify properly, you can't absorb nutrients properly from food. Then when your methylation cycle can't work, the methion pathway can't work, your homocysteine can't get recycled and then you can't detoxify properly. So when you've got lunging, you lose your ability to detoxify by up to 30%. When you've got the double homo, you will lose 50% of unable to detoxify from your body, which is quite huge. Because if we can't detoxify, then our liver account function correct, our gallbladder account function. Therefore we get licky gut and sebum and all of these other things that can.

Speaker 2: 5:43

Then it starts off usually with a small thing inside the body. That's not right and then it just gets worse. A person gets older, they can't methylate as well and therefore, as we age as well, the symptoms and the signs start appearing more regularly. So a lot of people come in their 40s plus going. I don't understand what's happening with my body. I've got all these things that I never had before. So as we age, methylation also controls how we age. So we can get gray hair quicker. If we're not methylated properly, we can lose hair. If we're not methylated properly, it creates anemia.

Speaker 1: 6:26

It creates lots of other things as well For our listeners out there that aren't watching video. I just brushed my receding hairline, zelda. So when we're talking about the two common polymorphisms, or the two polymorphisms of note with regards to methylation, what is it? The 1287 and the 677T? So do you say 121287C is it and the 677T?

Speaker 2: 7:01

Yes, there's a C at the front of it and then the other one is a C at the front with the 677T at the end. The C677T has been linked a lot more to cardiovascular disease and diabetes, osteoporosis and high levels of anxiety, even schizophrenia bipolar. But believe it or not, there's actually 30 different polymorphisms in that one gene 30. So we've actually only studied two in depth, so because they're the ones that they've found to be the most common, but there are 30 in total.

Speaker 2: 7:47

And when you can't methylate properly, as I was explaining, the other genes then can get turned on and cause other problems. So the methylation cycle is one of the first. When we eat food, we want to get natural folate into our body, and when we can't methylate properly, the other biochemical cycles happen after that. So when we can't create enough methyl groups, the other cycles can't work correctly. I mean, one of the most important things that we make from methylating is an enzyme called sami. It's got a big, long chemical name, I won't bore you with it, but I just call it sami. So, next to ATP, which is the energy that we create to use in our body, sami then controls 200 other genes and functions in our body, which is quite huge and sami is created in our methyl cycle.

Speaker 1: 8:46

Yeah. So the question I was going to ask is where do we start with regards to assessment? Do you start with a genetic sort of profile and that go there. You go because I've heard of people getting quite worried, particularly with fertility issues, even pregnancies where they think they're going to pass on a cleft palate, you know unequivocably to their child, their unborn child. Denise Furness has seen patients where they wanted to get termination of pregnancy because they've been showing this result without any qualified advice around how you manage that. So you've got that assessment, but then you've got assessments like home-assisting methylmalonic acid. I don't know if you can measure Esadenosilmethionine sami. How do you start with assessments? Where do you go with this? Do you go biochemical or genetic, or mix your both?

Speaker 2: 9:44

It's really good to do a full profile. I mean I generally start off with basic full blood counts. From looking at you can actually do a full-ate serum test and an active B12. So B12 levels are a great indication of also not being able to methylate properly, along with B6 and also B9. I honestly love the organic oath test where you do the organic metabolites and the urine. That gives you a massive amount of indication on what's happening inside the body, because with a blood test sometimes people can have a high B12 level inside their blood. That doesn't actually mean that it's being utilized intracellular, same as folate. It can be in the blood, but is it actually getting into the cells to do what it needs to do?

Speaker 2: 10:43

I like to do a genetic test. I like to do full blood count profile. I also love to look at the functionality of the liver and the gallbladder because they are very vital in making sure that we're producing enough phosphatidylcholine and because phosphatidylcholine needs to be made to function our gallbladder correctly and that will also can lead to a lot of sebum and sami produces and helps produce phosphatidylcholine. So if we're making enough methyl groups, we can't choose sami and 70% of our sami is utilized in making phosphatidylcholine.

Speaker 2: 11:26

So I look at basically a lot of things to verify because the genetic test, as you just said, can scare some people. They don't like to know all of their cheeky genes at play. So if they don't want to know that, I can look more at symptoms. What they're feeling like. I can usually pin it mostly on love symptoms anyway, but then some people want to see that test. So it's really up to the individual. But if you're generally not feeling well, anxious, feeling stressed, and you can't work out why, because you're eating a healthy diet, you've got a good chance of your under-metalline and that gene is not behaving itself.

Speaker 1: 12:10

So this is where we sort of go back to where the the pedal hits the metal, and that is diet. So regardless of our assessments, whether they be genetic or using pathology lab tests or whatever, we come back to the supporting of those methylation genes with diet and judicious supplementation. I get that, but you can't do the supplementation without the diet and green leafy vegetables.

Speaker 1: 12:42

Yeah, green leafy vegetables are the biggest maker. So when we're talking about people that present to you with an existing problem let's say anxiety we're going to talk about SIBO and the tick They've got an ingrained dietary pattern. How do you then change that? By the use of encouragement or knowledge, so that you get them to understand what their diet is doing to them and how a changed diet can help their condition?

Speaker 2: 13:16

One of the massive, important, vital steps that I would take with someone is gluten. You know you might not be gluten intolerant, but if you're under-mathalating and you eat foods with gluten, the gluten actually has the ability to block the folate receptors in our methylation cycle. So if we're already under-mathalating and eating gluten in our diet, you're not going to absorb any methylfolate at all, no matter how many Like you could eat a serious bucketload of greens every day to be able to get any through. And I explain also big style that gluten affects the gallbladder and the bile flow. So gluten can block bile receptors in our gallbladder so we cannot produce enough bile can't produce enough, obviously, phosphatidylcholine, which we also need to help function. So I sort of sit down and I explain I try to start small dietary changes as a step forward.

Speaker 2: 14:24

I just said I could be 30 days. Let's go gluten-free, not drink dairy milk as well, because dairy milk will also affect the body's ability to absorb proper methylfolate. So those are two big steps that I would ask them to do. And try to obviously avoid the dirty dozen that have been heavily sprayed with glycophosate. And then also try to embrace more salads, greens, broccoli, keel, more green things into their diet and then supplement on the side, as required, with essential nutrients and methylfolate when their body is ready. You have to build the foundation first. You just count for methylfolate at the problem. There's a lot of work needs to be done on the gall first and if there is underlying dietary issues, because that's what can be causing the dietary issues inside there inside there just the track, the loading diarrhea. Or some people have massive chronic constipation due to the fact that they can't methylate properly.

Speaker 1: 15:34

Right. So this is sort of an answer, if you like, for SIBO. Everybody wants the answer. I don't subscribe to the fact of one size fits all, but you do a lot of work with SIBO. How is methylation tied into this?

Speaker 2: 15:52

Well, because the methylation creates our salmi, and our salmi is the important factor it's used. 70% of its production is used to create phosphatidylcholine, to get the gallbladder and the gall to actually function and create bioflow. So, unfortunately, some people end up with their gallbladder removed due to gallstone. So we need the SAMI to make phosphatidylcholine, and then phosphatidylcholine helps stop fatty liver, stop producing gallstones and making sure that our bile is flowing quite freely. Without the methyl groups being able to make the SAMI, or without the SAMI to make phosphatidylcholine, then we're not having the bile flow. Therefore, all that bacteria can then build up inside the digestive tract and cause the seabed, and it can then overgrow.

Speaker 2: 16:52

The answer is not to throw phosphatidylcholine out either, though, because you have to do gallbladder work first unlock the bile receptors, remove the gluten from the diet, remove the dairy milk from the diet, and then you can go in with a few other things. Phosphatidylserine is one of my favourites, or a butyrate is really good for fixing seabed, and then, looking at moly liptomim and biotin, it's fantastic for helping seabed as well, so that you can properly digest sulfur food. So a lot of seabed diets will say don't eat sulfur foods. We need the sulfur. We need the sulfur in our systems to help digest the food. So going on a low sulfur diet is actually quite dangerous in the long run.

Speaker 1: 17:50

Not good food to do that Right, you know what you're speaking about in there at the beginning. With regards to phosphatidylcholine, certainly phosphatidylserine. It's part of the cholesterol triad where basically, there's only this small sliver down in the bottom corner of the triangle, excuse me where cholesterol is kept in solution and it's governed by the level of cholesterol, which is, you know, if we were going to reduce it, that's contentious, I get that. But there's also the amount of choline and the amount of bile acids involved in there, of which you know we've got vitamin E, taurine, all of these other things that help make up bile acids.

Speaker 1: 18:40

So when you're talking about that, forgive me, I was going to mention, for those people that don't know or can't imagine, what I'm talking about we'll put the link up in the show notes on the website for this image so that you can get how the idea turns into therapy. But what I was going to ask you, zelda, is where do you start with? You know you mentioned gluten, so trying to get people off gluten because it helps make sludge. But what about the use of various herbs, choline, for instance, with nutrients, taurine, things like that vitamin E? What do you use in that cholesterol management? In that I really love taurine like amino acid.

Speaker 2: 19:23

taurine is one of my favorite go-tos because what also happens? You know, a lot of people will say things like I feel like I can't concentrate and I've got a folded brain. So that's where taurine comes into play, because what's happening there is the ammonia is building up inside their system and when we introduce taurine, not only does taurine support the gallbladder and the bile flow, but it actually starts mopping up the excess ammonia that's in the system. So taurine is one of my favorites as well, along with phosphatidylsirane. I find phosphatidylsirane is a better entry because if the gall is very sludgy, you don't want us to throw straight away out of phosphatidylcholine because it's too strong. The point is they cannot process fatty acids, so we have to get that working for us before we start giving things like that.

Speaker 1: 20:21

So with regards to that gallbladder issue, we've got to be very cautious from a safety point of view about people who have got a single stone greater than one centimeter, because if we stimulate the gallbladder too much and that blocks the common bile duct, you've got a surgical emergency on your hands, not a medical emergency. So do you get people assessed, like with an ultrasound, for instance, to see if they've got sludge or gravel there?

Speaker 2: 20:51

Yes, that's a good idea to do that to just to check. You said you've already had that problem in the past and again it's usually can be a family history issue with gallstones and kidney stones. But then you need to also look at the oxalate content in food. So there's some foods are very high in oxalates, so when you actually look at gallstones they're actually made up of oxalate particles. So that's where they've been formed.

Speaker 2: 21:25

And some people love going on these crazy celery juice times, and that just drives me crazy because celery juice is so high in oxalates, as is beetroot, and a lot of people can suffer from gallstones because they're juicing large quantities of celery and beetroot. Oh, and then they like to throw the carrots in too. So there we have three very high oxalate foods that they're thinking they've been told it's healthy to do, and in the meantime they're for a gallbladder and their liver is just trying to keep up from sending all of those oxalates and then that can cause the stomach to be forming. So it's always good to check how big they are before and you can break them down as well for changing in diet and taking a few extra supplements.

Speaker 1: 22:17

Yeah, I remember reading in Pozzorno and Murray's Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine about that breaking down of gallstones. Using a formula of these, if I say the word volatile oils it'll be incorrect, but you know, you general and things like that from various sources. But what I thought was hilarious is that the next sentence says or you can use peppermint, okay.

Speaker 2: 22:50

So it's like yeah, so the only issue I'd have with peppermint is that it's not a good idea.

Speaker 1: 22:58

So the only issue I'd have with peppermint there would be anybody who had gastroesophageal reflux. So I'd take the enteric coated peppermint. But for most people it should be fine. But I just thought it was hilarious, this complicated formula or peppermint, but how do you people have? Sorry, how do you find people go with this? What sort of results have you had? And you know, we're shanghaiing ourselves, I guess, into gallbladder. But what you've got to think about is obviously the management of distal symptoms, from treating the liver so anything from anxiety headaches to SIBO and all that sort of issues. That's a complex sort of thing about. How do you, where do you put the main part of your therapy, where do you put your eggs in most baskets, sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 23:54

I usually ask people to list their top three health goals. So we would. You know you can't fix it in one hit. You know, especially if you have an MTFHR mutation, it can generally be fixed within three to nine months of work and guidance. And then after that, you know, I've educated them on what they need to eat and what they need to do. But you always look at all of the massive cofactors in every biochemical reaction. Most people that can't methylate. It means that all of those are being stolen by all of the other factors. That can't work. So you're always going to generally be low in magnesium, you know. You're always generally going to be low in zinc. They're always going to generally be low in copper. They're always generally going to be low in V12. V12 is so vital to all of the systems, from anxiety, depression, cream, energy and all of the biochemical pathways. So it's always a good starting point to support the foundations like that first fix the diet and then afterwards. Then you can go into bio tetrahydrate folate supplementation after the foundation is built.

Speaker 2: 25:09

It's always a good idea to do the foundation process and make sure that the files flowing correctly.

Speaker 1: 25:18

Yeah, and what about simple things like you know, teaching people how to eat, teaching people simple skills, tips, hints and tips to help with digestion, like chewing your food till it's paced. Stop eating when you're stressed.

Speaker 2: 25:35

I have. One of the questions on my forum is do you chew your food or eat like a snake?

Speaker 1: 25:42

Or eat like a snake.

Speaker 2: 25:46

So people some people don't chew properly. They just like literally swallow. It's like you have to get the saliva flowing, you have to get everything get you know. You tell your body there's food coming. You have to properly chew, you have to properly digest. I give them tips on the best types of food to buy, the best source of whole foods. Whole foods is always good, better than processed. Avoid processed foods. Avoid any more artificial color, its flavors preservers, avoid monosurium gluten. One of the big things when it comes to methylation is avoid folic acid. So folic acid is a synthetic form of folic and our bodies cannot absorb much folic acid synthetically. And when we look at cereals and breads and lots of things now they love to advertise them as being fortified and when it says it's fortified, unfortunately that means artificial folic acid and that builds up in your system and it's got nowhere to go and it's stuck and it's really not good for us. So I give them all that kind of advice to avoid things like that.

Speaker 1: 27:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:06

I've interviewed.

Speaker 1: 27:10

Say that again, sorry.

Speaker 2: 27:13

And there's some on the show, a lot on the show. Supplements, especially the vitamin. One will use folic acid as there be no, they say. But that's not what we want.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Yeah, I've interviewed Carolyn Ladowski a couple of times about this and her master's project. She's now doing her PhD on this issue and I've got to admit and I admitted to Carolyn I was one of those people. I was one of those people that said no, you can just use bulk doses of folic acid and barge your way through. It seems I was way wrong. It seems that you don't just weave this stuff out like is commonly thought, that indeed there does intend to be an issue in un metabolized folic acid floating around the body and causing other issues. That's a whole new area of research in that.

Speaker 2: 28:12

Well, that's the thing, and you know you were misinformed, like everyone really has been. It's not until recently proper research has been done to prove that folic acid is bad for women that want to fall pregnant. It's not the type of proper folate that their body needs or wants. And then you know a second that someone does for pregnant that's one of the first things that they will get along Is folic acid. I have pregnant mothers coming to me with horrendous sickness and morning sickness, and one of the first questions I asked are you taking folic acid? And they usually answer of course I am. And I'm like okay, well, there's a problem. So stop taking folic acid and your nausea will go away. And within three days later they're just going away, the nausea goes, the solace, and then they take folic acid and they're just going to lean up in their system and it's making them feel really ill.

Speaker 1: 29:13

So, forgive me, that's incredible. So you changed their folic acid sorry, forgive me. You changed their folate source from folic acid to MTHF and within three days, their Gravidarum hyperamesis, their pregnancy nausea, resolves.

Speaker 2: 29:40

Yeah, they were like I can't believe it. I don't want to throw up every couple of hours anymore and they feel a lot better straight away and within three days. They feel so much better.

Speaker 1: 29:54

Huh, so that's quite a simple intervention when you think about it. You're still giving them a folate, so you're still within healthy guidelines of helping to protect the newborn or the developing fetus from neurochleph sorry neural tube defects Whilst alleviating a major issue that's robbing the developing baby of other nutrients and that's hyperamesis.

Speaker 2: 30:22

Yeah, yeah, that's just a simple solution.

Speaker 1: 30:27

So I've got a question for you there, zelda. When these patients go on to the serotonin antagonists you know the wafers and the tablets, the anti-ometrics that are very commonly used in cancer treatment, in oncology support Is the use of methylfolate helping in any way the production or the management of serotonin in the gut and thereby settling down that hyperamesis that way?

Speaker 2: 31:04

150 million percent. Wow yeah, like five methyl tetrahydrofolate is fantastic to making sure that our body is producing also enough sami, which is also making sure that there is a proper balance inside the body of serotonin and dopamine and melatonin, so it makes sure that there's a proper skill going on inside the body. So that's why five methyl tetrahydrofolate is amazing for so many different things.

Speaker 1: 31:41

Gotcha. And of course, when we're talking about the methylation cycle we get sort of hooked into a little bit the MTHF. But we've also got B12. And then you've got oh, which form of B12?. Do you have the cyanocobalamin again, which I was wrong on. I thought cyanogestment red, because when you draw it up in the violets red. But it is not, it's cyanide attached to cobalamin. And then you've got the mecobalamin, the methylcobalamin, hydroxacobalamin. But you've got other forms of cobalamin which we're not allowed to use as supplements in Australia, which occur in our metabolism, the acetyl form, for instance. Do you ever employ these? How do you get people to change the way they're thinking about these other B vitamins and how they're taking them, what they're taking them for?

Speaker 2: 32:41

When it comes to it to B12, it's usually good, like the foundation, to start off with Hydroxy B12, which we do have access to in Australia, and hydroxy B12 is one of my first go-to's, especially if someone has blood pressure issues or if they're consistently always busy. That would be my first go-to on the hydroxy, and sometimes you can get a hydroxy and an adenov B12 blend, which is great, and then when that foundation's built, then that's when you can go in with the methyl B12. Because we have to get the methylation cycle working first. If you start from lots of methyls at it and it is blocked and it's not functioning, there's nowhere for the methyls to go. So you have to make sure that the foundation's there. But hydroxy B12 would be one of my very first steps in the B12 solution.

Speaker 1: 33:39

Gotcha, gotcha and things like B6, for instance, do you favour the use of pyridoxyl 5-phosphate? Do you use pyridoxine hydrochloride? I know the TGA is rather down on pyridoxine at the moment, but I think that's more due to pyridoxine hydrochloride. I guess the other thing is I've never, ever seen an issue with higher doses of B6. They now seem to be limiting it to what? Is it? 25 or 50 milligrams, and it's crazy. I haven't seen these issues that the. Tga is talking about.

Speaker 2: 34:21

I believe that B6 is again. We can't methylate properly. It's something that's usually very deficient inside the body. Another signal on that is having very high levels of hormone system, because B6 can help reduce hormone system levels inside the body and P5P is my preferred option when it comes to B6. So those are the foundations that you would start off before you start throwing maples at someone who can't methylate properly. You would do the hydroxy-B12, the P5P. A lot of that kind of thing would be great to start off with.

Speaker 1: 35:03

Gotcha and you mentioned right at the beginning that there's so many more polymorphisms than that's just the two that are commonly spoken about. So when we're talking about these, we get the proper forms from food. We are very often restricted in what we can give with supplements. So where do you go with helping somebody with that broad spectrum of methylation across the whole gamut of polymorphisms? Do you ever have to choose a B-vitamin supplement that's got all of the active forms? Or should we just say look, eat just green leafy vegetables and bung them into you, Obviously being mindful of oxalates, which I picked up? What's your go-to there? When you need the B12 from the green leafy vegetables but you've got the oxalate issue, how do you find the path to tread?

Speaker 2: 36:09

That's why you have to look at everything. You have to look at diet, you have to look at lifestyle, you have to look at environmental toxins as well, as I had mentioned earlier. When you have the MTFHR polymorphism, you tend to talk so far, hopefully so. Are you living in a moldy environment? Are you working in a job where you're dealing with a lot of chemicals? You're breathing in polluted air? There's so many factors. So you have to look at the complete picture in that person's life, from where they're living to what they eat, do their lifestyle? Do their exercise? Do they take time out? Do they have a high stress level. All of these factors are very integral in working out the correct treatment and then to look at how to detoxify the body for them so that they can start to feel better and get more energy.

Speaker 2: 37:06

And I always believe in supplement as required. It's not good to throw 500 supplements in one hit and pray for the best. It's supplement as required. It's good to just start off small change diets, do some tweaks here and there and alleviate some of the original symptoms, and then you've got a foundation that you can build on to start alleviating the rest, and you just do it in different phases. So I usually have phase one, phase two and phase three, and usually by phase three that's it.

Speaker 2: 37:40

You know, usually multiple little things have been fixed and it depends though if we've got a mask or lactilation that takes a few more phases, because now we're dealing with not just mtfhR genes, but we could be dealing with about 12 to 14 other ones. So you have to just calm down the methylation gene first, because it has the ability to turn off or on the other genetics. So a lot of histamine sensitivities. So that can cause a lot of problems with people as well. So it's about reducing histamine inside the body and methylation cycle is very vital to reducing histamine part of the body.

Speaker 1: 38:24

Gotcha. Now we've spoken about diet and lifestyle and judicious use of supplements and we've spoken about SIBO a little bit. But can I ask there, there in, do you utilize probiotics to help with, say, the production of B12 or the production of methylated vitamins? With regards to SIBO, because you know we've gone through this thing about don't give probiotics, at least the ones that we have available to us in Australia, the 14 or so straight species figure. So do you utilize probiotics to help with SIBO or do you have to sort of start right back at? You know, as you mentioned, diet, lifestyle and use probiotic supplements only in certain cases?

Speaker 2: 39:24

I feel like the best approach. For when it comes to SIBO, there's a gene that's called PEMT is usually applying with SIBO, and PEMT requires SAMI, which is the methyl donor created through our methylation pathway. So PEMT actually utilizes up to 70% of the SAMI that we produce, and it's the PEMT then that keeps the goal while flowing and produces the phosphatidylcholine stops, gold stones, all of that. So I prefer to do diet work first, help the goldbladder and look at eating a lot of prebiotic foods first and then, after that has been done, then you go in with a great probiotic and we've got, yeah, some great ones available on the shelf, and so then we do that after a phase two to help the SIBO.

Speaker 1: 40:27

And if they have an issue eating.

Speaker 2: 40:29

Yeah, if they have an issue eating now in sulfur based foods, then you fix that as well in phase one. So you can fix that with something simple like leptomine and biotin that helps to get the bacteria under control inside the intestinal tract First, and then you fix the goldbladder and then after that come in with probiotic.

Speaker 1: 40:53

Gotcha. There's obviously so many rabbit holes we can go down here. There's a whole series of podcasts on various topics. Zelda, thank you for taking us through an overview, because it's very often missed. With regards to methylation and, you know, one of the areas I didn't think we didn't investigate too much, unfortunately, in this podcast is what Ben Lynch talks about, and that is to look upstream from what we think is the problem. We always look upstream. Maybe that's a topic for another podcast with you, but thank you so much for taking us through this pragmatic, practical approach to methylation issues today on Wellness by Designs. I very much appreciate you.

Speaker 2: 41:35

Thank you very much for your time, andrew. That was great, thank you.

Speaker 1: 41:39

And thank you for joining us today. Remember you can catch up on today's podcast, the show notes and all the other podcasts on the Designs for Health website. I'm Andrew Whitfield Cook. This is Wellness by Designs.